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	<title>Comments on: SF Authors (and editors) saying more smart things&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://www.chrismclaren.com/blog/2006/08/06/sf-authors-and-editors-saying-more-smart-things/</link>
	<description>As honest as a gambling man can be</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 02:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: jeff ford</title>
		<link>http://www.chrismclaren.com/blog/2006/08/06/sf-authors-and-editors-saying-more-smart-things/#comment-27118</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff ford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Chris:  That sounds very sound.  I'm with you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris:  That sounds very sound.  I&#8217;m with you.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. McLaren</title>
		<link>http://www.chrismclaren.com/blog/2006/08/06/sf-authors-and-editors-saying-more-smart-things/#comment-27117</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. McLaren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrismclaren.com/blog/archives/2006/08/06/sf-authors-and-editors-saying-more-smart-things/#comment-27117</guid>
		<description>Jeff, I completely agree that we don't need anyone playing the role of moral arbiter of bitching. 

Also, I note for the record that pretty much the last job I want is "apologist for Patrick's style of argumentation". Many other good reasons aside, my house is a little too glass, you know?

My plan is to take PNH's comment (or at least my interpretation of it) to heart and try to make sure when I bitch that I'm not at the same time writing off a bunch of people. Or at least that when I do it's only occasional, and that I acknowledge it as a guilty pleasure. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff, I completely agree that we don&#8217;t need anyone playing the role of moral arbiter of bitching. </p>
<p>Also, I note for the record that pretty much the last job I want is &#8220;apologist for Patrick&#8217;s style of argumentation&#8221;. Many other good reasons aside, my house is a little too glass, you know?</p>
<p>My plan is to take PNH&#8217;s comment (or at least my interpretation of it) to heart and try to make sure when I bitch that I&#8217;m not at the same time writing off a bunch of people. Or at least that when I do it&#8217;s only occasional, and that I acknowledge it as a guilty pleasure. <img src='http://www.chrismclaren.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: jeff ford</title>
		<link>http://www.chrismclaren.com/blog/2006/08/06/sf-authors-and-editors-saying-more-smart-things/#comment-27112</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff ford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrismclaren.com/blog/archives/2006/08/06/sf-authors-and-editors-saying-more-smart-things/#comment-27112</guid>
		<description>Chris:  I think you and Patrick are right, as I said before.  But, you know, discerning which is which in the two choices you state above is sometimes in the eye of the beholder.  Bitching is free and I think people should bitch however they want.  Sometimes it's not the content of the bitching that is so important but just the act of bitching.  The other day on my board somebody wrote in an erroneous comment about the Israeli and Lebanese conflict, and Patrick's quick response was, "Where do you get your news, from comic books?"  There was a chance for education, but instead he chose to basically say, "You dope."  Whatever I write on my journal, I always request that people with different opinions write in, and when they do, I treat them with respect.  A good example -- see Doug Laine's response to my entry and my response.  Do I need to be told, or does anybody else need to be told by Patrick whether they should bitch about something or not?  Or which way is the appropriate method?  Don't get me wrong, I always enjoy his points of view both on Making Light and especially when he comes over to 14theditch to make a point.  My problem with this particular situation is it sets him up as moral arbiter to what makes a worthy bitch.  I just say bitch at will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris:  I think you and Patrick are right, as I said before.  But, you know, discerning which is which in the two choices you state above is sometimes in the eye of the beholder.  Bitching is free and I think people should bitch however they want.  Sometimes it&#8217;s not the content of the bitching that is so important but just the act of bitching.  The other day on my board somebody wrote in an erroneous comment about the Israeli and Lebanese conflict, and Patrick&#8217;s quick response was, &#8220;Where do you get your news, from comic books?&#8221;  There was a chance for education, but instead he chose to basically say, &#8220;You dope.&#8221;  Whatever I write on my journal, I always request that people with different opinions write in, and when they do, I treat them with respect.  A good example &#8212; see Doug Laine&#8217;s response to my entry and my response.  Do I need to be told, or does anybody else need to be told by Patrick whether they should bitch about something or not?  Or which way is the appropriate method?  Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I always enjoy his points of view both on Making Light and especially when he comes over to 14theditch to make a point.  My problem with this particular situation is it sets him up as moral arbiter to what makes a worthy bitch.  I just say bitch at will.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. McLaren</title>
		<link>http://www.chrismclaren.com/blog/2006/08/06/sf-authors-and-editors-saying-more-smart-things/#comment-27111</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. McLaren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrismclaren.com/blog/archives/2006/08/06/sf-authors-and-editors-saying-more-smart-things/#comment-27111</guid>
		<description>Hi Jeff!

My take on Patrick's comment--and I could be reading it wrong--is that there is a distinction between "Damn it, how can you be so ignorant as to not see &lt;strong&gt;this&lt;/strong&gt;!" and "You are so stupid you are &lt;strong&gt;never&lt;/strong&gt; going to be capable of understanding this." The important distinction there is that the first case is theoretically correctable and the second one isn't. Number one leads you to argue for education, debate, and open media. Number two leads you to argue for a class of empowered elites and class of marginalized masses. However you see the current situation, I would argue that the direction you want to push in is the first one. (And that's the change in me since my 20s--back then I wanted to be in the empowered elite. Now I want everyone to be empowered citizens.)

That being said, it's sometimes hard to maintain optimism when you see things like ass-gluing outweighing what's happening in the Middle East, or when you read about how &lt;a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060806/ap_on_re_us/iraq_believing_wmd" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"&gt;half the U.S. still believes Iraq had WMD&lt;/a&gt;, I have to admit. And pointing out that these people are stupid is definitely still fun! (And yes, I realise that I just quoted "some survey showing that a majority of those questioned had been soft-headed enough to believe a lie they’d been told by someone in authority". Heh.)

There's no question the &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"&gt;Big Lie&lt;/a&gt; works, but does that mean we write off the people it works on, or that we redouble our efforts to make people it won't work on? At some level it's either "keep trying" or "give up", and I'm not ready to give up on that many people just yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jeff!</p>
<p>My take on Patrick&#8217;s comment&#8211;and I could be reading it wrong&#8211;is that there is a distinction between &#8220;Damn it, how can you be so ignorant as to not see <strong>this</strong>!&#8221; and &#8220;You are so stupid you are <strong>never</strong> going to be capable of understanding this.&#8221; The important distinction there is that the first case is theoretically correctable and the second one isn&#8217;t. Number one leads you to argue for education, debate, and open media. Number two leads you to argue for a class of empowered elites and class of marginalized masses. However you see the current situation, I would argue that the direction you want to push in is the first one. (And that&#8217;s the change in me since my 20s&#8211;back then I wanted to be in the empowered elite. Now I want everyone to be empowered citizens.)</p>
<p>That being said, it&#8217;s sometimes hard to maintain optimism when you see things like ass-gluing outweighing what&#8217;s happening in the Middle East, or when you read about how <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060806/ap_on_re_us/iraq_believing_wmd" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">half the U.S. still believes Iraq had WMD</a>, I have to admit. And pointing out that these people are stupid is definitely still fun! (And yes, I realise that I just quoted &#8220;some survey showing that a majority of those questioned had been soft-headed enough to believe a lie they’d been told by someone in authority&#8221;. Heh.)</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no question the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">Big Lie</a> works, but does that mean we write off the people it works on, or that we redouble our efforts to make people it won&#8217;t work on? At some level it&#8217;s either &#8220;keep trying&#8221; or &#8220;give up&#8221;, and I&#8217;m not ready to give up on that many people just yet.</p>
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		<title>By: jeff ford</title>
		<link>http://www.chrismclaren.com/blog/2006/08/06/sf-authors-and-editors-saying-more-smart-things/#comment-27109</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff ford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrismclaren.com/blog/archives/2006/08/06/sf-authors-and-editors-saying-more-smart-things/#comment-27109</guid>
		<description>Chris:  The point is, yeah, these people are stupid.  Unwilling to be outdone in the fog of lefty verbiage,Patrick is playing his most recent sanctimony trump.  He, himself has spent so long pointing out people's stupidity and now it has become an American past time, so he has to trump everyone else by confabulating the point that pointing out stupid people's stupidity is stupid.  I think he's right about that, but it's still fun and nothing scratches that itch like a good
sanctimonious finger pointing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris:  The point is, yeah, these people are stupid.  Unwilling to be outdone in the fog of lefty verbiage,Patrick is playing his most recent sanctimony trump.  He, himself has spent so long pointing out people&#8217;s stupidity and now it has become an American past time, so he has to trump everyone else by confabulating the point that pointing out stupid people&#8217;s stupidity is stupid.  I think he&#8217;s right about that, but it&#8217;s still fun and nothing scratches that itch like a good<br />
sanctimonious finger pointing.</p>
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